Hong Kong Director: Barbara Wong, (黃真真 - Chun-Chun Wong)
I first meet Hong Kong director Barbara Wong (黃真真) at the Kodak House in Hong Kong. As I walk in I get shown to the back of the long office where Barbara is mid photoshoot. She turns to greet me warmly, “Stacy?” She says, “So great to meet you” as she shakes my hand. She just needs a minute to finish off the last of her promotional shoot for the day. I go back to wait in the conference office and 5 minutes later Barbara enters. She is wearing some skyscraper platform heals, a modern Chipow dress, finished off with awesome makeup, big eyelashes and that famous short blonde hair. A force of energy, friendly but most definitely in charge, I can see why she has done so well. Her team is just as gracious, offering their chirpy hellos despite the long day they’ve all had. I am the last stop on her day of promotions, having started at 10am and not stopping all day.
We sit down at the end of the boardroom table as I chat to Barbara about her incredible life so far including her experience in New York, losing one million dollars before even making her first movie, and never giving up on what you love…
You’ve had such an incredible life already but I’d love to start from early on in your life. I know you went to Performing Arts school in Hong Kong right after secondary school; Did you start out thinking you would like to be an actor?
Yes. Originally, when I was in primary and secondary school I was very much into acting so I applied for the Academy of Performing Arts (APA) and studied acting, but after three years I felt it was very limiting. APA had arranged different interviews with TV stations, HK Repertory Theatre and commercial radio. There was a TV show that was offering children’s hosting show, which didn’t appeal, then there was theatre but because of my height I was always playing teenagers. They all liked me, so I had a choice and I chose the radio station.
After working at the radio station, you went to The US to study at NYU. When did you decide that you wanted to be a director? Was there a moment, director, or movie that inspired you?
I went to NYU and when I started the course I did a directing course, and everyday felt so happy in Washington Square Park. I’d never felt so happy before. After I studied film I felt like my life was very full and I found a passion for myself. It was at that time at NYU I knew I wanted to be a director. Before that I was still exploring.
I heard in an interview you told a great story about you trying to get a script to Robert De Niro. As you didn’t have an agent you couldn’t get anyone to read it, so you went and sat outside near Tribeca to wait for him. I know this must have been a really hard and frustrating time, how did you keep going when you felt like you weren’t getting anywhere?
I'm always trying to find a way to solve a problem and I read that was how Quentin Tarantino had done it when he started! I failed but I am optimistic, sometimes too optimistic.
I did think ‘Am I really talented or am I just dreaming?’ I also had to sustain on the minimum at that time.
Yes. Originally, when I was in primary and secondary school I was very much into acting so I applied for the Academy of Performing Arts (APA) and studied acting, but after three years I felt it was very limiting. APA had arranged different interviews with TV stations, HK Repertory Theatre and commercial radio. There was a TV show that was offering children’s hosting show, which didn’t appeal, then there was theatre but because of my height I was always playing teenagers. They all liked me, so I had a choice and I chose the radio station.
After working at the radio station, you went to The US to study at NYU. When did you decide that you wanted to be a director? Was there a moment, director, or movie that inspired you?
I went to NYU and when I started the course I did a directing course, and everyday felt so happy in Washington Square Park. I’d never felt so happy before. After I studied film I felt like my life was very full and I found a passion for myself. It was at that time at NYU I knew I wanted to be a director. Before that I was still exploring.
I heard in an interview you told a great story about you trying to get a script to Robert De Niro. As you didn’t have an agent you couldn’t get anyone to read it, so you went and sat outside near Tribeca to wait for him. I know this must have been a really hard and frustrating time, how did you keep going when you felt like you weren’t getting anywhere?
I'm always trying to find a way to solve a problem and I read that was how Quentin Tarantino had done it when he started! I failed but I am optimistic, sometimes too optimistic.
I did think ‘Am I really talented or am I just dreaming?’ I also had to sustain on the minimum at that time.
Do you miss New York?
Very much, in the past when I didn't have so many chances to make films I would usually go back once a year. I think it’s the greatest city in the world.
How do you think your time in New York has affected your style as a director?
In NY there is no right or wrong, it’s about creativity. Every time I am stuck with a script, I try and remember my time in NY and think out of the box. I do think it has shaped me. The word ‘dream’…I think everyone has met a lot of people to fulfill the dream (in NY). Not every city has that. The whole city is filled with dreams and energy.
What are the subjects that most intrigue you as a director?
Humanity, human nature is what I love to explore. Whether comedy or tragedy or romance or like this time (The Secret- 消失爱人) as a thriller. I think that is why someone is watching a film. To see the humanity.
Barbara Wong's latest movie, The Secret- 消失爱人
Is being a director what you thought it would be like while you were studying?
No, I think when I was studying it was just learning about how to make a film technically, but no matter how many classes you have about investment, you have to be in the real world to understand the experience. A big part of being a director, is not just talent but if you have leadership, if people can trust you. Being a director is different to being a writer. As a writer, you can close your door, get drunk! As a director it's quite schizophrenic, you have to be rational but creative, protect the budget and think outside of the box. Acting is like a license to be crazy. Directing, you can’t be too businesslike as you lose the art but you have to have balance. Luckily I’m a Libra! But it is quite challenging.
As well as directing you are also a writer, do you enjoy the writing process?
I enjoy it, but writing is not an easy process and sometimes very lonely, sometimes you feel very insecure, thinking I can’t figure this out. But I found if I don’t write my own script, it's not very smooth. 80% of the problems are solved if I write it myself. If there is any accident like it rains, and I don’t need rain in the scene, I can easily change it, because I wrote it.
The product is more original. On the other hand I do feel like I should use other peoples scripts. I have tried, I keep trying. Step by step, or maybe I haven’t met the right script.
For your movie ‘Girls’ you had your friends improvise scenes, and then based the script on that, what was that process like for you and how did you come up with that way of approaching the dialogue?
I think because I was an acting student, I found improvisation so important. They aren’t acting they are reacting. It’s spontaneous, so I love it so much. And for the actors if it’s the first time working with me, they find it so tough. This scene is me and you fighting, we don’t need a script. So sometimes I put the script away. So often the actors feel insecure, they feel it’s too loose, but later on when they have a taste they like it and then they see the footage (and realize why it works).
Every film I improvise, not every scene but every movie. I don’t like them to rehearse together before the movie. I have my first AD go over lines with the actors, but not together. It is important they go over the lines, so I satisfy them for them to work on their lines. I know they need to because they may need to change a word here or there, but it’s for technical reasons.
Also after three takes it's useless. It’s just acting. I shoot it, but it’s useless. I don’t do masters, over the shoulder; I just capture what I need. For lighting, I have a stand-in for actors. The actors then come in, go from one point of the set to another so they know where they have to go, but I don’t have them go over lines, I just let them know what space they have. The actors love it.
Barbara Wong's movie: Girls
I love that, so much freedom for the actors! Going back to your days in New York. You wanted to be a director there but trusted a friend and ended up owing $1 million on bad stocks and you hadn’t even made a movie yet. That must have been an awful time. Did this make you want to go back to Hong Kong or taint your memory of NY in anyway?
I had two options, to file for bankruptcy and move to HK or stay and work and I chose to stay. I worked as a bartender and other jobs and saved money.
My boyfriend at the time had a camera and worked for freelance news, and one of my friends suggested I just make a film by myself, I asked my classmates to help with the production and I acted in it. After I made the film, my boyfriend and I at the time were breaking up so I decided to come back to HK. It was really tough in New York as well, and so I felt it was time to come back to HK but there was no regret.
You really were incredibly brave and took a chance and decided to use the last $60,000 credit on your credit card to fund your next project, was it a big decision to do that?
I had no choice at that time. If I did not use that part of the money, the other path was bankruptcy so it was just two paths to choose. After I make a decision I will do my best to make the decision work. I also already had debt, if I had $8 of debt or if it is $6, it doesn’t matter. It’s still debt.
In a good way you can say I have the energy to sustain, you can also say I’m really stubborn! I won’t accept it. A lot of people when they lose, its not because they are less talented, it’s because they gave up. If they did it for another three years they could have been Ang Lee.
Today I took a taxi and the driver knew John Woo, he was a nobody he said, a PA who got lucky. It’s interesting right? I think persistence is sometimes the most important thing.
It really doesn’t make you feel good when you aren’t successful; it really makes you feel like shit! I had many years of that. So being stubborn is good. But I have to say having those ups and downs gave me a lot of courage. If I didn’t have that past, I wouldn’t be so relaxed. My movie comes out the 25th but I’m relaxed about it. Of course I hope it does well, but if it doesn’t I’ll make another one.
Do you think you would ever move back to NY?
Who knows? It’s possible. I joke with the press that I might go to Bollywood. Don’t you think that’s (Bollywood's) interesting? So ask me if I'd go to NY, very possible! I wouldn’t drop everything, but life takes us to places we wouldn’t expect. I didn’t know I would make movies in China; I have my office there now, my apartment there.
Your first documentary was Women’s Private Parts. What was it that made you want to do this documentary?
When I was in NYU my classmates would ask me, "What is it like in China, do women have to walk behind men?" I would say, "What are you talking about?!" So I felt like actually foreigners don’t understand the Chinese. After being in NY 6 years, I was surprised to see how different women were in Hong Kong whilst I was away. They talked about sexuality and didn’t need a man. I was thinking the documentary was going to be for foreigners, but it didn’t turn out that way. During interviews of Women’s Private Parts, I had no chance to turn the cameras off; when women had the chance to talk about love and sex they wouldn’t stop! I made it in 1999 so they didn’t have a lot of chance to express themselves, now it’s different.
The Documentary was incredibly successful, as your first project that must have felt amazing!
It went to some film festivals, the documentary got into a lot of countries so I got to go to a lot of places, like Hawaii. When an international audience saw it, they felt the same way. I was asking them "Would you go to a gigolo?" They said yes! "Would you sleep with them?", They said, "Well, if they were clean!" It wasn’t too far fetched to what real people would do, it was very honest.
The success happened quite quickly and you got the NY Independents, Best International Film. Did you think it would do so well?
Without my calculation it brought a lot of things to me. It was considered a very wild documentary so it brought a lot of attention to me. People kept saying I was really smart that I did something to make me stand out. Although it did really well, it was originally meant to go in a different direction.
There’s a lot of talk in LA in the Hollywood film industry about how much harder it is for women in the industry to get as far as men, but you have previously said you don’t think that to be the case, at least in HK. Do you think HK is different perhaps than America?
I don’t feel that it’s harder. I feel its 50/50 industry. I think actually that women have more roles in their lives. It is very different for men. I am still single, and not married. Luckily I am not interested at the moment. I wouldn’t have been able to have made so many films. As women we have so many missions.
I have two Jokes, one is my husband is so busy he hasn’t been back for dinner for a whole week, which is accepted, if it was a women they would wonder what she was doing!
Another is, if a women cries on set, she’s so weak, she can’t handle it, she should go home. If it’s a man it’s different. He’s sensitive etc..
I don’t think it’s discrimination, men and women are different. With directors we work till 2am, brain storm in the middle of the night. Sometimes I have to go away for four months, how can I do that when I have a child who is seven years old? Who is going to take care of the kid? I personally feel that this is more of the problem. I think this is more of the problem than the glass ceiling.
I don’t feel that it’s harder. I feel its 50/50 industry. I think actually that women have more roles in their lives. It is very different for men. I am still single, and not married. Luckily I am not interested at the moment. I wouldn’t have been able to have made so many films. As women we have so many missions.
I have two Jokes, one is my husband is so busy he hasn’t been back for dinner for a whole week, which is accepted, if it was a women they would wonder what she was doing!
Another is, if a women cries on set, she’s so weak, she can’t handle it, she should go home. If it’s a man it’s different. He’s sensitive etc..
I don’t think it’s discrimination, men and women are different. With directors we work till 2am, brain storm in the middle of the night. Sometimes I have to go away for four months, how can I do that when I have a child who is seven years old? Who is going to take care of the kid? I personally feel that this is more of the problem. I think this is more of the problem than the glass ceiling.
Having trained as an actor, do you think this has made you a better director to help understand your actors?
Very much. I can communicate with them so well and they feel so comfortable with me, and I give them the respect they deserve. I know the pressure they feel. Two hours of makeup, learning lines, and waiting in the makeup room, waiting, and waiting and outside is over 100 people working. After two hours someone comes in and says “OK we’re ready”. They then have to concentrate, they come out 100 people surrounding them “OK, action”. I have been an actress, I know. They have to execute, they have to deliver. Someone has spent so much time getting the lighting ready, and what if they can't deliver? So I give them a lot of time, a lot of understanding. If I’m a director and I yell at you, how can you do it better?
It’s been such an exciting time for Chinese cinema lately with more co-productions happening. Do you have any upcoming plans for a co-production or any other projects you can talk about that you are currently working on?
I would like to do a co-production; I think it would be a very good direction. Hollywood movies have reached such a professional and deep level technically. But the west also wants some inspiration. So I think working with the east, we can work together and it’s a win-win situation. That’s why I moved to China, and established my movie production company Real Films.
It’s not mature but that’s why its exciting. The studios in the States they are very careful what movies they choose, so there is no creativity.
This is my 13th film, so I understand box office, it's not something you can control. But I can control making a film I don’t regret. It will live longer than me. I feel so lucky I can make movies; I have a mission to make good movies.
Veering away from movies for a moment, you have fantastic fashion. Is fashion something you have always been interested in?
Doing the press for my latest movie, some of the press just asked me, "Why have you not changed your style since you started directing? Shouldn’t you wear a suit now?" I said "No it’s more important to be myself!" No matter what I do, I’m a woman and want to be the woman I want to be.
Do you think about costuming when you are making a movie? Are you a very visual person?
Yes, very visual. I’m always very involved in art direction and work closely with the stylist. I do a lot of research and look for references to share with them. The film can look very different depending on what style you choose, 10 different styles could be used with the same script.
How would you describe your own personal style?
More rock in the past, from NY black leather, the chains. Today I had to do a magazine shoot so I’m wearing a chipow. I like to play.
Any favorite designers?
I like, D&G. I like Philip Lim, a lot. I like fun stuff. I don’t follow certain brands.
Who inspires you, personally and professionally?
Ang Lee. He is amazing, in the way that he is Chinese but can make Brokeback Mountain and totally capture it. He is a true artist.
What would be your ideal project to work on, if budget wasn’t an issue?
I am currently working on a sci-fi project, that is humanity based. I hope that it will be done soon, that’s a bigger budget. I don’t think too far ahead, try to take each step by step.
Barbara Wong’s new film The Secret - 消失爱人 is out now.